{"id":975,"date":"2003-07-21T12:42:14","date_gmt":"2003-07-21T20:42:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.ogre.nu\/wp\/?p=975"},"modified":"2021-11-05T16:12:23","modified_gmt":"2021-11-06T00:12:23","slug":"the-hypocrisy-of-guantnamo","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/?p=975","title":{"rendered":"the hypocrisy of Guantánamo"},"content":{"rendered":"

In a comment to The Fat Guy<\/a>, one James Rummel whines: <\/p>\n

Sure, there has to be constant vigilence to avoid abuses of power. But most of them are up in arms because of actions against non-nationals, sometimes even POW’s captured on a battlefield! <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

An interesting choice of words. Is it not the position of the White House that these guys have no rights because they are not<\/em> really POWs under the Conventions? <\/p>\n

Last time I checked these guys never made a “social bargain” with the US. Saying that we have to treat the entire world with the same consideration as our own citizens would hamper efforts to end the threat to innocent people. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I know no words strong enough to express my disgust.
\n
\nGuantánamo is not<\/em> actually a battlefield, and no legitimate purpose will be impeded by demonstrating to the world, and to the American People<\/em>, openly and without cheating, that the guys to be punished are genuinely guilty and that the Stars & Stripes stand for principles other than Might Makes Right.<\/p>\n

The Bill of Rights is not something conditionally granted by<\/em> USG; such a theory is in direct opposition to the principles stated in a dusty old forgotten document whose anniversary was, for reasons which sometimes elude me, celebrated a few weeks ago. Every word of the BoR is part of the conditions under which the government is permitted to exist<\/strong>; to repudiate any jot of its terms is to waive any authority that the Constitution purports to grant.<\/p>\n

I’ll say that again: If the protections of the Bill of Rights do not apply to the <cough><\/i> detainees at Camp X – because they are technically outside the US, or because they are there involuntarily, or on any other pretext – then USG has no authority to lay a finger on them<\/em>. Can’t have it both ways.<\/p>\n

True, the prisoners did not seek any ties with the US — but that’s true of most people in the world (including most Americans), and I don’t think it is (yet) official doctrine that this lapse entitles USG to seize any such person anywhere and kill them for the White House’s convenience.<\/p>\n

What have we come to, that any of this needs to be said?<\/p>\n

(I am aware that the Supreme Court disagrees with me; see Verdugo-Urquidez<\/i>. They must have a better magnifying glass than mine, because I can’t see where the Constitution says “except with respect to foreigners” or “unless we can imagine circumstances in which this would be really inconvenient”.)<\/p>\n

2004 Jan 11:<\/strong> It occurs to me that the Verdugo-Urquidez<\/i> standard is inapplicable anyway. That case hinged on the meaning of “the people” in the Fourth Amendment (also in the First, Second, Ninth and Tenth), but that phrase does not appear in the Fifth (“No person . . .”) or Sixth (“. . . the accused . . .”), two clauses directly concerned with when the government forces unwanted relations on some person.<\/p>\n

2021: Closing comments on this one to cut down a little bit on spam.<\/i><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In a comment to The Fat Guy, one James Rummel whines: Sure, there has to be constant vigilence to avoid abuses of power. But most of them are up in arms because of actions against non-nationals, sometimes even POW’s captured … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[30],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-975","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-race"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/975","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=975"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/975\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4573,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/975\/revisions\/4573"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=975"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=975"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/bendwavy.org\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=975"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}